Rewiring Your Brain to Thrive: Creative Health with Clinical Psychology Researcher and Entrepreneur Katina Bajaj
Clinical psychology researcher, founder, published author and blogger Katina Bajaj joins us to break down why creative health is fundamental to everybody's overall wellbeing (especially "non-artists") and how you can address yours with simple actions today. She shares her own experience with languishing during her time in investment banking which inspired her to question the commonly accepted systems in society that are making us less human and more robot. She confirms from a scientific perspective that we're all capable of flourishing, but many of us are stuck in a state of 'blah'. We discuss why it's important to address this state, how she got out of it herself and the career journey that it inadvertently sent her on. Katina and her co-founder, Dupi, have designed a platform called Daydreamers to provide tools that will send your brain and life on an upward spiral by getting you into a flow state, thinking critically and improving your creative health. Listen in to hear how Katina is applying science and her personal experience to reject hyper-productivity, hustle culture, and obsessive achievement while building a company in a way that feels good and produces better results.
My Current Obsession: A mindful morning routine
Meditate (UCLA Mindful)
Short awe walk
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Transcript:
00;00;07;04 - 00;00;32;14
Steph
I'm Stephanie Hammond and this is the Fruition podcast. On this show, I sit down with passionate people who've brought their dreams to fruition. We'll explore different versions of success and fulfillment and dig in to what was on their mind along the way. With these conversations, I hope we can all expand our sense of possibility. And who knows? Maybe hearing their stories will inspire you to take action on yours.
00;00;32;16 - 00;01;21;27
Steph
Hello. Welcome back. I'm so excited for today's guest, Katina Bajaj. She's a clinical psychology researcher, founder of the incredible creative health platform called DayDreamer is the author of blog turned book called On Adulting How Millennials Can Work Less, live more, and Bend the Rules for Good. And overall, she's just a breath of fresh air. She rejects concepts like hustle, culture, hyper productivity, girl bossy and overachieving by laying out the facts and the science of why all of the above and backfiring the hypothesis that she studied throughout her masters and now it's her life's work is that our creative health is at the root of this state that many of us experience called Languish.
00;01;22;04 - 00;01;48;03
Steph
We go really deep on this in the conversation, but it's that feeling of blah when you're not totally burnt out, but you're definitely not thriving and you don't see a way out. And she's creating daydreams to directly address this. I'm a huge fan of holding lately. I used to think that I could figure everything out on my own, but scientifically backed tools like this make the process so much more efficient and honestly fun.
00;01;48;05 - 00;02;09;28
Steph
We talk more about this in the episode, but small actions are the key to big changes in your life. There's just no way around it. You are meant to flourish and thrive. You are entirely capable of flourishing and thriving. And this information and the daydreamer platform can help take you there. And obviously I am right there with you.
00;02;10;00 - 00;02;37;14
Steph
Intimately familiar with this state and feeling of languish. So don't leave me hanging and let's feel more alive together. And Katina was nice enough to give us a discount code for $10 off your first month of daydreams. The code is fruition. Ten f. R. U. I. T. I. O. N ten. If you're curious, I highly recommend just following your curiosities and giving it a try.
00;02;37;16 - 00;03;01;08
Steph
Okay. And in the spirit of being more human and less robot, my obsession to share with you is some morning mindfulness. So I have a rule for myself that I stay off my phone until I do three things. One meditate to dry brush and three a short walk, which is just a headphones free walk where you notice the beauty around you.
00;03;01;11 - 00;03;29;04
Steph
I remember at some point Matthew McConaughey said that he needs to check in with himself in the morning before he checks in with everybody else and before the world starts coming at him. So he journals first thing when he wakes up. So this is my version of that. And this is how I put myself in the driver's seat and get to know my own energy for the day so that I can better distinguish and separate it from all of the other energy that I might come into contact with the rest of the day.
00;03;29;07 - 00;03;54;25
Steph
And no, I don't do it every single day without fail. But most every day this helps put me on the right track. So take what you wish, take what works for you and have a gorgeous day. Enjoy the episode and let me know what you think. By. Hello, Katrina. Welcome to the FRUITION podcast. Thank you so much for being here with me today.
00;03;55;00 - 00;04;04;10
Katina
Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited for this chat and to catch up, but I feel like we've had this for a long time coming. Yeah. Yeah.
00;04;04;10 - 00;04;10;13
Steph
And I'm like starstruck. I'm so obsessed with all of your content. It's so informative. That's what I.
00;04;10;13 - 00;04;10;22
Katina
Love.
00;04;10;23 - 00;04;15;07
Katina
Yeah, that makes me so happy to hear. And thank you so much, I.
00;04;15;12 - 00;04;23;10
Katina
I am definitely someone who spends a lot of time on TikTok more than I probably should myself, and I feel.
00;04;23;10 - 00;04;28;13
Katina
Like I am never personally motivated to make change unless I understand.
00;04;28;14 - 00;04;29;03
Katina
Why.
00;04;29;11 - 00;04;30;07
Katina
We need to find.
00;04;30;07 - 00;04;53;04
Steph
It helpful with these little steps that you suggest, too, because they're every day habits that you can incorporate into your life in like a couple of minutes or just in shifting your perspective during something that you're already doing, which are easy to kind of blow off because you're like, What's the big deal? Like, if I if I, you know, am more present on my walk or if I don't listen to anything on my walk, like what difference is it going to make?
00;04;53;04 - 00;04;58;25
Steph
But you explain how impactful it really can be. And I just think that's so powerful.
00;04;58;28 - 00;05;02;03
Katina
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, I.
00;05;02;05 - 00;05;04;05
Katina
Think that the world that we live in is.
00;05;04;05 - 00;05;05;11
Katina
So much about.
00;05;05;11 - 00;05;09;14
Katina
Buying things and trying to continuously improve ourselves.
00;05;09;14 - 00;05;12;03
Katina
And I don't think that's.
00;05;12;07 - 00;05;14;28
Katina
Really how science and wellbeing works.
00;05;14;28 - 00;05;17;08
Katina
Right? Like it's a series.
00;05;17;08 - 00;05;18;21
Katina
Of micro changes.
00;05;18;21 - 00;05;19;24
Katina
That we have to make.
00;05;19;24 - 00;05;23;21
Katina
In order to actually change our life writ large. And we can't necessarily.
00;05;23;21 - 00;05;28;22
Katina
Just take a pill or, you know, go on a trip or go meditate in.
00;05;28;22 - 00;05;30;21
Katina
The mountains in order to change who we.
00;05;30;21 - 00;05;45;23
Katina
Are at the core. So although it might not be as enticing at first, it has the most impact. And I'm excited for all of us as a society and as a community to be able to start.
00;05;45;26 - 00;05;47;27
Katina
Preparing for those things more.
00;05;48;00 - 00;06;11;00
Steph
Yes. Yes. Like, so excited to get your perspective on all of these different topics, but to introduce you to anybody listening who hasn't been stalking you for ages. Now, you are the founder of On Adult Teen, which is a blog that you started, that you nurtured a community of over 100,000 people, which is massive, and you evolved that into a book.
00;06;11;00 - 00;06;20;03
Steph
And then you actually published a book by the same title on Adult Teen How Millennials Can Work less, live more, and Bend the Rules for Good. Check, check, Check.
00;06;20;06 - 00;06;21;10
Katina
Yes. Yeah.
00;06;21;12 - 00;06;50;07
Steph
For all of those things. And you're the co-founder and chief wellbeing officer, which dream title of Daydream is, which is this incredible app that I've become a member of recently. And I'm engaging with you on. And it's so, so useful and I can see how it's really going to have a huge impact on my life. And the core tenant of this app and this membership is to help people be more human and less robot.
00;06;50;08 - 00;07;21;07
Steph
So I am really, really, really excited to learn more from you. You are a clinical psychologist as well, so you understand and explain the science behind everything that you're recommending, which I just love that you'll be able to share from a scientific perspective why some of these concepts are so important to implement in your life. It seems like writing is your thing and you've been featured in Fast Company, Time Health, Vox Teen Vogue, Mind Body Cream.
00;07;21;07 - 00;07;25;22
Steph
Like all of these publications that I've been obsessed with for years.
00;07;25;22 - 00;07;26;23
Katina
I love that you picked.
00;07;26;23 - 00;07;29;01
Katina
Up that writing is this common thread for me.
00;07;29;01 - 00;07;32;01
Katina
And you know.
00;07;32;04 - 00;07;35;08
Katina
I think it's actually a core tenet of my story that.
00;07;35;08 - 00;07;44;06
Katina
I really never thought that I could write after. I was like in high school, I ended up going to an.
00;07;44;06 - 00;07;48;15
Katina
Undergraduate business program at NYU where we were kind of funneled.
00;07;48;15 - 00;07;53;24
Katina
Into doing math, but going into finance and kind.
00;07;53;24 - 00;07;57;28
Katina
Of working in kind of this typical business realm.
00;07;58;01 - 00;08;01;02
Katina
And really growing up, I grew up as.
00;08;01;02 - 00;08;02;12
Katina
A first gen immigrant.
00;08;02;13 - 00;08;05;23
Katina
To a family that was.
00;08;05;23 - 00;08;10;28
Katina
Very much working class and always striving for.
00;08;11;00 - 00;08;13;04
Katina
More levels of success.
00;08;13;04 - 00;08;34;11
Katina
Quote unquote. And I only had thought about writing as this childhood pastime. And it wasn't until I was really like in the depths of burnout in my first job that I returned to it as a personal habit and then something that I even allowed myself to dream about doing.
00;08;34;13 - 00;08;36;06
Katina
As a career years.
00;08;36;06 - 00;08;36;20
Katina
Later.
00;08;36;20 - 00;08;38;05
Katina
So I.
00;08;38;05 - 00;08;42;19
Katina
Think it's really fascinating and cool how much can change and with such a short period.
00;08;42;19 - 00;08;48;05
Katina
Of time. But I think it speaks so much to a lot of what we'll talk about today, which is about.
00;08;48;05 - 00;08;52;21
Katina
Creativity and how we can kind of start to change our perception of it.
00;08;52;26 - 00;09;27;23
Steph
Yeah, absolutely. And I want to hear a bit more about that first generation immigrant mentality and how your family viewed creativity and understandably prioritized some of those other fields that you were just mentioning, math, finance and more linear path that we'll talk about that that had more of a formula to success. It makes sense that they would want to come to a country, the land of opportunity and take advantage of, you know, the security that seems to be available through those paths.
00;09;27;23 - 00;09;39;19
Steph
So I'm just curious, what did your childhood feel like in that sort of environment when it came to creativity and education? You said that you wrote but then stopped at a certain point. So what was your mentality around that?
00;09;39;24 - 00;09;42;07
Katina
Yeah, it's such a good question.
00;09;42;09 - 00;09;52;14
Katina
When I was growing up, my mom was luckily a stay at home mom and my dad worked in the restaurant industry, so he started as a dishwasher.
00;09;52;17 - 00;09;53;17
Katina
Kind of ended up.
00;09;53;20 - 00;10;15;28
Katina
Working out, managing some restaurants and then ultimately owning the place. When I was in college. So I grew up with a family who really prioritized stability, kind of a very different career path. And both of my parents had, which was late nights at home, you know, kind of family business.
00;10;16;01 - 00;10;16;09
Katina
And.
00;10;16;09 - 00;10;27;05
Katina
Really not necessarily knowing how that could turn into at least financial stability. So when I was growing up, I did a lot of creative things.
00;10;27;05 - 00;10;53;27
Katina
I was an opera singer, surprising guys. I know how that turned out. Yeah, it was it was very hard because I always wish that I could have been like cool pop singer, but my voice was like from the 1800s. So it definitely, definitely skewed a lot more towards Soprano. But anyway, I did that.
00;10;53;27 - 00;11;04;27
Katina
Intensely growing up. I did dance intensely to growing up and I loved kind of theater and being able to mash the two through that.
00;11;04;27 - 00;11;06;27
Katina
And those were.
00;11;06;27 - 00;11;08;29
Katina
Like my outlets also.
00;11;08;29 - 00;11;12;15
Katina
I did a lot of sports as well, so those were.
00;11;12;15 - 00;11;17;08
Katina
Just kind of things that I did in high school as a way to kind of.
00;11;17;10 - 00;11;18;15
Katina
Keep be fulfilled.
00;11;18;15 - 00;11;27;19
Katina
And happy. But there was no part of my childhood where it was ever discussed that that could be something I could pursue, even though I loved it, even though.
00;11;27;19 - 00;11;31;11
Katina
I, you know, like won these awards for it, there was.
00;11;31;11 - 00;11;32;18
Katina
Really no way that.
00;11;32;18 - 00;11;39;04
Katina
I thought that I could do that as a job. So I knew that I was going to.
00;11;39;04 - 00;11;45;21
Katina
Take this very kind of traditional path and study business, which was even outside the realm of.
00;11;45;21 - 00;11;57;23
Katina
What my parents ultimately wanted, which was, you know, to go into law or something even more stable. And for most of college, I.
00;11;57;25 - 00;12;10;28
Katina
Interned really rebelled against it, but knew that I would end up likely falling into one of the typical pathways of which I did. I ended up working at an investment bank out of school.
00;12;11;01 - 00;12;15;17
Katina
And we can get into how I felt there, but I.
00;12;15;17 - 00;12;19;25
Katina
Really kind of let go of pretty much all of my creative.
00;12;19;27 - 00;12;20;24
Katina
Love.
00;12;20;27 - 00;12;21;23
Katina
When I entered.
00;12;21;23 - 00;12;23;07
Katina
College.
00;12;23;09 - 00;12;44;16
Steph
After you graduated and going in, you were going into the workforce. Were you philosophizing on any of this or were you just kind of heads down? I mean, you when you went to NYU, you were on a merit based scholarship and then you graduated a year early. So you were probably just focused and busy. Were you thinking beyond your day to day execution and getting things done?
00;12;44;19 - 00;12;45;27
Katina
So it's really.
00;12;45;27 - 00;12;47;02
Katina
Fascinating and I can share.
00;12;47;02 - 00;12;48;17
Katina
A little bit of that.
00;12;48;17 - 00;12;49;14
Katina
Part of my story.
00;12;49;14 - 00;12;50;29
Katina
But when.
00;12;50;29 - 00;12;56;15
Katina
I got to NYU, there was this like they literally called it an underground network of.
00;12;56;15 - 00;12;57;14
Katina
People who.
00;12;57;22 - 00;12;59;23
Steph
Like the sound of.
00;12;59;25 - 00;13;04;22
Katina
I was weirded out by it, but I still I still dove.
00;13;04;22 - 00;13;06;26
Katina
Headfirst into it.
00;13;06;29 - 00;13;13;00
Katina
Of this community, of people who were pushing forward.
00;13;13;02 - 00;13;18;09
Katina
What we now know as social impact, right? So they were trying to understand where.
00;13;18;09 - 00;13;18;29
Katina
Does.
00;13;19;06 - 00;13;40;23
Katina
Business and business responsibilities lie for community, society, the world? It was a very nascent days of climate change work and environmental sustainability work within organizations thinking about mental health and wellbeing. And there were so many fascinating people and professors who were thinking deeply about this.
00;13;40;26 - 00;13;42;05
Katina
And I was.
00;13;42;07 - 00;13;46;25
Katina
Part of that group when I was an undergrad, which I think informed a lot.
00;13;46;25 - 00;13;48;27
Katina
Of the work that I ended.
00;13;48;27 - 00;13;50;07
Katina
Up doing in my career.
00;13;50;07 - 00;13;50;24
Katina
I thought of.
00;13;50;24 - 00;13;51;11
Katina
That as my.
00;13;51;18 - 00;13;53;02
Katina
Hobby in school.
00;13;53;02 - 00;14;07;22
Katina
But it's interesting because I ended up going on to do that work, you know, at some point at Goldman, which is where I was and my first role and then my next role after that at a philanthropic venture fund.
00;14;07;24 - 00;14;09;24
Katina
That being said, and I.
00;14;09;24 - 00;14;12;27
Katina
Think just to kind of summarize that a little.
00;14;12;27 - 00;14;14;13
Katina
Bit, we did a lot.
00;14;14;13 - 00;14;39;25
Katina
Of critical, deep thinking in that community, which I think was really missing from a lot of my formal education. So it really had me kind of starting to think about what does impact me and how can I personally make an impact, how can I join an organization or think more broadly about starting a company or doing something that combines things that people care about, which.
00;14;40;02 - 00;14;40;19
Katina
Is.
00;14;40;21 - 00;14;42;26
Katina
In the capitalistic society business.
00;14;43;03 - 00;14;45;02
Katina
And the ways.
00;14;45;02 - 00;14;46;22
Katina
That we can actually.
00;14;46;25 - 00;14;48;19
Katina
Improve the world.
00;14;48;21 - 00;15;04;29
Katina
So I kind of left college thinking about that deeply and ended up, as you said, graduating a semester early and instead of going to work straight away, like some of my peers, I decided to go back to work in Australia and New Zealand.
00;15;04;29 - 00;15;19;05
Katina
So yeah, I took my very meager savings for most of our internship. And so about like, you know, I, I'm just going to head off with one backpack and yeah, like.
00;15;19;10 - 00;15;22;03
Katina
Traveled around for a couple of months.
00;15;22;03 - 00;15;23;08
Steph
I yourself.
00;15;23;10 - 00;15;31;15
Katina
Yeah, by myself and literally just like lived off of busses, met a.
00;15;31;15 - 00;15;45;11
Katina
Ton of people and I would say that was probably the most transport motive experience that I had leading into the rest of my career. And the reason for that is because coming from obviously the family that I did at.
00;15;45;11 - 00;15;47;26
Katina
The school that I did.
00;15;47;28 - 00;16;02;29
Katina
And then the workplace that I knew I was heading into, the emphasis was on this very extrinsic version of success. Right. How much money can you make? How much you know, what can you buy with that? Like, what are you going to do.
00;16;03;02 - 00;16;04;01
Katina
To prove to the.
00;16;04;01 - 00;16;04;22
Katina
World that.
00;16;04;22 - 00;16;07;22
Katina
You are successful? And I don't know if you've spent.
00;16;07;22 - 00;16;08;21
Katina
A lot of time in New York.
00;16;08;21 - 00;16;14;19
Katina
But I think that's very much how the city is organized.
00;16;14;21 - 00;16;18;21
Katina
But when I got to Australia and New Zealand, I was eating.
00;16;18;21 - 00;16;26;28
Katina
My, you know, the same rice bag that I had bought at the supermarket for weeks and was.
00;16;27;00 - 00;16;28;18
Katina
Surrounded by people who were.
00;16;28;18 - 00;16;31;00
Katina
Really had no life.
00;16;31;02 - 00;16;32;13
Katina
Land. They were.
00;16;32;13 - 00;16;34;05
Katina
Just, you know.
00;16;34;08 - 00;16;37;03
Katina
Traveling and enjoying and living their life.
00;16;37;03 - 00;16;40;06
Katina
To truly what felt like the fullest.
00;16;40;06 - 00;16;51;17
Katina
And I think it just rocked my perspective of what happiness look like, what success looked like, and really allowed me to start to question what I wanted in my life.
00;16;51;20 - 00;16;57;14
Katina
So that is that is like pre adult honeymoon. I like to say that I took before.
00;16;57;14 - 00;16;58;04
Katina
Entering this.
00;16;58;04 - 00;17;08;19
Katina
Very corporate world just a couple of weeks after I got back. And it led to some really hard but interesting reflections.
00;17;08;19 - 00;17;32;10
Steph
Yeah, I bet. But that's so eye opening to recognize that, like you said, those extremes EQ measurement that we're using to determine our status and whether or not we've made it or where we are on that track of making it are not even considered by so many people in the rest of the world who are experiencing so much deep meaning and fulfillment in their lives.
00;17;32;13 - 00;17;56;11
Steph
I mean, it was probably so obvious to you that all of those measures are completely disconnected from what you're feeling in your day to day. And it probably really got you thinking that there's got to be something to that and that there's got to be another way or somewhere in between. That's what I'm thinking about or facing in my own life that I don't really want to be on either end of the spectrum.
00;17;56;11 - 00;18;22;22
Steph
I want something in between. And where is that fine balance where like you can enjoy the fruits of some of the systems that we have in place in our Western world, I mean, in capitalism, to put it willingly, but then also recognizing that like you don't have to sacrifice your soul and that you can actually adopt some of these practices and lifestyles and and tools and mentalities, I guess.
00;18;22;22 - 00;18;46;14
Steph
And I'm kind of struggling with like, where is that in between knowing that you were going to one of the most regimented workshops out there and, and like harsh, a very structured, very intense environment. How were you kind of grappling with this commitment that you had already made to Goldman and your new understanding of what could be possible in your life?
00;18;46;20 - 00;19;03;00
Katina
Totally. I mean, it was a very I think many of us can relate to this now because when we go through major identity transitions and changes, everything feels murky, right? And so you really don't know.
00;19;03;02 - 00;19;04;26
Katina
What is true.
00;19;05;00 - 00;19;12;05
Katina
Anymore. And I would say that period in time for me was very much reestablishing a lot of truths. And that.
00;19;12;05 - 00;19;12;27
Katina
Was the first.
00;19;12;27 - 00;19;16;18
Katina
Time probably besides going to college, that I.
00;19;16;20 - 00;19;17;27
Katina
Was.
00;19;17;29 - 00;19;22;11
Katina
Forming a new version of my identity in such a major way.
00;19;22;13 - 00;19;23;19
Katina
I think going.
00;19;23;19 - 00;19;32;08
Katina
Back to something that you were saying about balance, what really was the most fascinating realization I had traveling around in Australia, New Zealand.
00;19;32;11 - 00;19;34;09
Katina
Was I had done, you know.
00;19;34;12 - 00;19;39;02
Katina
A lot of trouble. My dad grew up in a very, very small village.
00;19;39;02 - 00;19;43;12
Katina
In Greece with no shoes. You know, we went there every summer.
00;19;43;14 - 00;19;45;04
Katina
There's like no running water.
00;19;45;04 - 00;19;49;03
Katina
So I we grew up with like a lot of that.
00;19;49;03 - 00;20;09;13
Katina
But what I think was really interesting is that when I was traveling around, a lot of people were choosing, actively choosing that life. They weren't just trying to get away from something, right? They were like, This is what is fulfilling me and bringing me joy in this moment. It might not be forever.
00;20;09;15 - 00;20;10;19
Katina
But like, who cares?
00;20;10;19 - 00;20;25;02
Katina
I I'll decide when it feels better to me to change it. And it's interesting. I feel like I could almost caricature myself back then, but I traveled around with a notebook, like writing out exactly when I was going to the next place.
00;20;25;02 - 00;20;30;06
Katina
Like I was the most type-A, anxious person ever.
00;20;30;06 - 00;20;31;17
Katina
Like if it rained.
00;20;31;17 - 00;20;32;19
Katina
I was like.
00;20;32;19 - 00;20;35;13
Katina
No, I'm missing out on this one time. I could ever.
00;20;35;15 - 00;20;37;10
Katina
Do X, Y, Z activity.
00;20;37;10 - 00;20;51;29
Katina
And I think it really allowed me to see that not everything means everything is an evolution in life, right? And we are just making these choices based on the identity that we have right now and the values that we have at this given time.
00;20;52;01 - 00;20;53;08
Katina
And I think that.
00;20;53;08 - 00;20;57;27
Katina
Was a really liberating realization going into this new, intense.
00;20;57;29 - 00;21;00;09
Katina
You know, space where there.
00;21;00;09 - 00;21;02;04
Katina
Were a lot of expectations.
00;21;02;04 - 00;21;03;24
Katina
And I felt.
00;21;03;24 - 00;21;13;07
Katina
Really lucky that I had the awareness to go into that and being able to make the choice of what was most important to me in that moment.
00;21;13;09 - 00;21;15;04
Katina
What I chose.
00;21;15;06 - 00;21;21;13
Katina
For the year and a half, two years that I worked at Goldman was that I wanted to learn as much as possible from people.
00;21;21;13 - 00;21;26;21
Katina
Who clearly did something right. Like they as.
00;21;26;21 - 00;21;27;16
Katina
Much as everyone.
00;21;27;16 - 00;21;30;07
Katina
Really hates. On Goldman.
00;21;30;07 - 00;21;32;16
Katina
Which is very understandable.
00;21;32;19 - 00;21;33;16
Katina
It is a.
00;21;33;16 - 00;21;37;06
Katina
Really interesting place to work because people there.
00;21;37;06 - 00;21;38;02
Katina
Are.
00;21;38;04 - 00;21;40;08
Katina
Extremely driven.
00;21;40;11 - 00;21;47;19
Katina
To do their best and whatever that can mean, you know, that might not be on the best things. But I do think.
00;21;47;19 - 00;21;47;27
Katina
It was a.
00;21;47;27 - 00;21;50;00
Katina
Very cool place to.
00;21;50;00 - 00;22;20;17
Katina
Start my career, even though I really disliked a lot of the content that I was doing because it instilled a lot of values of what was most important. How do I get that done and how to make choices about prioritization and kind of doing things to the best caliber that you can. So I made an active choice in that time, like, I know I'm going to dislike this, but I'm going to do my best here and try to get as much out of it.
00;22;20;17 - 00;22;29;10
Katina
And then when that time was not right anymore, I actively looking for something else. Yeah, I could care more about it.
00;22;29;13 - 00;23;11;04
Steph
That's actually that's so interesting that you had this experience where you understood more about fulfillment, meaning and your values, and then immediately following that, you had the opposite experience of understanding what it takes to really excel and perform and achieve. Yeah, and I'm sure it was a really fascinating, you know, shift in your perspective and, and to be able to take a step back from it all and pick and choose pieces from each to kind of create your own recipe of what you want for your own life must have been like the ultimate master class for setting up your next steps or what you thought of your future.
00;23;11;08 - 00;23;31;11
Steph
Just the opportunity to have that higher perspective and awareness during it all so that you can really disassociate from the validation that a lot of people are seeking by going to work at Goldman. Yeah, you could really get from it exactly what you needed. That's so, so interesting. So how did you feel when you were there?
00;23;31;13 - 00;23;34;02
Katina
Yeah, I love the way that you framed that. And I.
00;23;34;02 - 00;23;39;29
Katina
Think what's really interesting, coming back to the thread in the beginning of our conversation, the way that I was able to do that was.
00;23;39;29 - 00;23;40;18
Katina
Through.
00;23;40;18 - 00;23;42;27
Katina
Writing all the time.
00;23;42;29 - 00;23;43;24
Katina
I took a.
00;23;43;24 - 00;23;49;18
Katina
Notebook everywhere with me on the subway at work. I would like find a little corner.
00;23;49;20 - 00;23;58;10
Katina
I can no longer sit at my three screen computer anymore. I must take a writing break. And it was really the way that I.
00;23;58;10 - 00;24;01;11
Katina
Stay connected with myself and what was most important.
00;24;01;11 - 00;24;02;19
Katina
To me, obviously.
00;24;02;19 - 00;24;06;12
Katina
Among other things. But I think that was probably the main way that I was.
00;24;06;12 - 00;24;08;15
Katina
Able to do that. I would say.
00;24;08;15 - 00;24;11;12
Katina
That when I was at Goldman, I was very.
00;24;11;12 - 00;24;12;09
Katina
And I don't.
00;24;12;09 - 00;24;15;09
Katina
Mean that slightly naive, like I really thought.
00;24;15;09 - 00;24;19;06
Katina
That I individually could make.
00;24;19;06 - 00;24;20;00
Katina
An impact.
00;24;20;00 - 00;24;25;18
Katina
And change on this organization. Another and I think that's one of the most beautiful.
00;24;25;18 - 00;24;29;04
Katina
Things of being a young person.
00;24;29;06 - 00;24;33;08
Katina
And that's why I like even only ten years later, I get.
00;24;33;08 - 00;24;40;21
Katina
So much energy from people who are just getting out of college and into this like system that.
00;24;40;21 - 00;24;44;18
Katina
Exists that all of us adults kind of just end.
00;24;44;18 - 00;24;47;25
Katina
Up, whether we like it or not.
00;24;47;27 - 00;24;49;28
Katina
You know, entering. And I.
00;24;49;28 - 00;25;07;23
Katina
Think what was really cool about that time and that was when I started writing on adulting privately was questioning the things that people accepted to be true, like why are you sacrificing your child's soccer game to stay late to work on this presentation that.
00;25;07;23 - 00;25;11;18
Katina
Feels so odd? And so.
00;25;11;18 - 00;25;20;18
Katina
All I did that time was almost look at it as a journalist, I guess, and think about like these are the accepted things to be true and this is what I will not.
00;25;20;18 - 00;25;29;12
Katina
Tolerate as a human being. But yeah, all of my I'm there felt very much like I was.
00;25;29;14 - 00;25;30;00
Katina
Immersing.
00;25;30;00 - 00;25;38;13
Katina
Myself in an experience that I was trying my best to figure out what I did not want in my next phase of life.
00;25;38;16 - 00;25;42;05
Steph
So interesting. You must have been having a ha ha ha.
00;25;42;05 - 00;25;43;05
Katina
Oh, yeah.
00;25;43;07 - 00;26;14;23
Steph
I. I heard too. I mean, just through what you've posted and what you've written and how you've spoken and other conversations that you were feeling pretty worn out. And a word that you've mentioned a couple of times is languish. And so I would love to hear just from your perspective as a psychologist. Yeah. What what is languishing and what is this idea that so many people are accepting, languishing in their life?
00;26;14;25 - 00;26;16;18
Katina
Totally. That, I.
00;26;16;18 - 00;26;17;27
Katina
Would say is probably the.
00;26;17;27 - 00;26;23;24
Katina
Biggest If I were like looking back on my notes at the time that I personally was.
00;26;23;24 - 00;26;48;07
Katina
Experiencing and unaware of, and also that everyone around me was experiencing and not talking about. So to kind of define what languishing is, when we think about mental health, it isn't just mental illness or the absence of mental illness, right? So a lot of times when we think of the word mental health, we typically associated with things like depression or anxiety or OCD.
00;26;48;07 - 00;26;49;21
Katina
Right.
00;26;49;23 - 00;26;50;14
Katina
But what.
00;26;50;14 - 00;26;56;02
Katina
Has been this really powerful shift in the mental health space over the past.
00;26;56;05 - 00;26;56;26
Katina
Decade.
00;26;56;26 - 00;26;58;06
Katina
Or a little bit more.
00;26;58;09 - 00;26;58;18
Katina
Is that.
00;26;58;18 - 00;27;03;06
Katina
We've started to broaden what it means to be mentally healthy.
00;27;03;08 - 00;27;08;08
Katina
And mental through mental health sits.
00;27;08;08 - 00;27;08;27
Katina
On the other.
00;27;08;27 - 00;27;11;05
Katina
Side of our mental health.
00;27;11;05 - 00;27;35;05
Katina
Spectrum, which looks like flourishing and thriving and reaching your full potential. Right? That being said, when we're kind of in this middle stage where we're not experiencing the depths of burnout, the depths of depression that were, you know, not clinically diagnosed with mental illness, but we are not reaching that.
00;27;35;07 - 00;27;36;19
Katina
Full spectrum.
00;27;36;25 - 00;27;45;24
Katina
Side of mental health. We're sitting right in the middle at something called the languishing. So this is where we actually have the biggest risk.
00;27;45;24 - 00;27;47;11
Katina
Of developed.
00;27;47;11 - 00;27;50;08
Katina
Being a mental illness. And oftentimes.
00;27;50;09 - 00;27;55;28
Katina
I always love referencing Adam Grant wrote a really viral piece.
00;27;55;28 - 00;28;00;12
Katina
About this in 2021 in The New York Times, and she called.
00;28;00;12 - 00;28;00;18
Katina
It.
00;28;00;18 - 00;28;01;07
Katina
Feeling.
00;28;01;08 - 00;28;02;01
Katina
Blah.
00;28;02;03 - 00;28;04;15
Katina
It's when nothing in your life.
00;28;04;17 - 00;28;05;07
Katina
Feels.
00;28;05;07 - 00;28;08;26
Katina
Exciting or energizing. You're not necessarily like.
00;28;08;26 - 00;28;10;12
Katina
Exhausted and.
00;28;10;15 - 00;28;14;22
Katina
Completely at the end of your, you know, stress limit.
00;28;14;22 - 00;28;15;23
Katina
Which is.
00;28;15;23 - 00;28;17;08
Katina
What we experience when we're burned.
00;28;17;08 - 00;28;19;11
Katina
Out. But it's.
00;28;19;11 - 00;28;22;11
Katina
When nothing in your life is motivating.
00;28;22;11 - 00;28;23;18
Katina
You towards a.
00;28;23;18 - 00;28;30;08
Katina
Future and you kind of feel like you're just living this very robotic, repetitive version of your day.
00;28;30;08 - 00;28;38;29
Katina
To day, which I think many of us really do, sadly. And that is definitely, you know, what I was experiencing.
00;28;38;29 - 00;28;40;13
Katina
Probably even more.
00;28;40;15 - 00;28;43;21
Katina
More levels of stress than when I was at Goldman.
00;28;43;21 - 00;28;52;08
Katina
But I think it's something not having a word for it is deeply important to be able to start to heal from.
00;28;52;10 - 00;29;21;12
Steph
Totally, totally. Because that state, it's just really easy to ignore it and to fall into this cycle, which I'm sure gets worse and worse and worse is you don't address it. But yeah, it's an easy state to accept and live with because you can still get through your day to day. Like you're still getting your work done, you're still seeing your friends and doing things, but you're not feeling as deeply as you could feel like your fuzzy, your fuzzy.
00;29;21;12 - 00;29;49;29
Steph
I guess if people who are in this state that aren't totally burnt out to the point where they need to quit their job or take leave or really address it, but they're not flourishing and they're in this in-between languishing space, how do they begin to take steps out of that when it might feel in that place? Like adding another hobby or another chore would just add stress?
00;29;49;29 - 00;29;55;28
Katina
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, this is this is the conundrum of the.
00;29;55;28 - 00;29;59;15
Katina
Way that our world works and also the solution. Right.
00;29;59;15 - 00;30;01;19
Katina
So what's really.
00;30;01;19 - 00;30;06;23
Katina
Fascinating is that this area has gotten a lot of focus over the past couple of.
00;30;06;23 - 00;30;08;04
Katina
Years, I think.
00;30;08;07 - 00;30;18;24
Katina
Especially because of COVID. And it's actually a lot of what we focus on at day Dreamers. But what's really interesting is there are two outcomes from a lot of the research.
00;30;18;26 - 00;30;20;09
Katina
The first is.
00;30;20;13 - 00;30;21;14
Katina
Adding in.
00;30;21;20 - 00;30;23;10
Katina
Activities that.
00;30;23;10 - 00;30;29;15
Katina
Are enjoyable to your day to day, even if it feels like you don't have any time or space for it.
00;30;29;18 - 00;30;33;09
Katina
The reason for that is twofold. First, a lot.
00;30;33;09 - 00;30;37;23
Katina
Of times when we're languishing, we actually miscalculate the way that we spend our time.
00;30;37;23 - 00;30;44;17
Katina
So we and I have experienced this many times myself, but we'll feel.
00;30;44;17 - 00;30;50;09
Katina
Like our days are extremely busy, but we're spending 2 hours scrolling on tick tock.
00;30;50;09 - 00;30;50;26
Katina
Right.
00;30;50;28 - 00;31;03;11
Katina
And when we look at actually how people spend their time versus what they say they're feeling and how they feel their time is being spent, it doesn't line up.
00;31;03;13 - 00;31;03;21
Katina
And the.
00;31;03;21 - 00;31;11;21
Katina
Second thing is that when we actually add enjoyable activities into our day and take it, even if that means taking out things.
00;31;11;21 - 00;31;14;16
Katina
That are kind of.
00;31;14;23 - 00;31;39;09
Katina
Bringing you down, like we're placing those activities, or if you're like literally squeezing them in and making new time, the research finds that you actually feel like you have more time when you're adding activities into your life. And I think there's a couple of reasons for that. But what is most interesting to me is.
00;31;39;09 - 00;31;46;28
Katina
That we're demonized, joy, and enjoying ourselves, right? And when we look at it from.
00;31;46;28 - 00;32;01;18
Katina
A scientific perspective, enjoyment is one of the core ways that we improve our health and our happiness. There's even studies where people like doctors, literally send their patients to laughter therapy.
00;32;01;25 - 00;32;06;20
Katina
Oh, my God, I don't want to go. I know, I know. There is true.
00;32;06;20 - 00;32;15;07
Katina
Clinical research on the impact of fun and laughter and enjoyment. Now. Yeah, on reducing inflammation in our body.
00;32;15;07 - 00;32;16;18
Katina
Like it's it's.
00;32;16;18 - 00;32;18;12
Katina
Actually really crazy the impact.
00;32;18;12 - 00;32;20;03
Katina
That it can have.
00;32;20;05 - 00;32;25;24
Katina
So that's one side of things. The other side of things is this concept of flow.
00;32;25;27 - 00;32;26;08
Katina
Right?
00;32;26;08 - 00;32;28;21
Katina
So we've heard a lot about getting into.
00;32;28;21 - 00;32;32;19
Katina
The flow state and I don't know about you, but.
00;32;32;19 - 00;32;39;19
Katina
Whenever I hear this, I always associate it with like email companies.
00;32;39;21 - 00;32;58;12
Katina
Like companies that are trying to help me be more productive and they're like, the best way to be more productive is to get into a flow. Say while you are typing up to 50 emails on your to do list, which is not true from a scientific perspective. But one of the.
00;32;58;12 - 00;32;59;28
Katina
Ways that we really.
00;33;00;02 - 00;33;00;16
Katina
Feel.
00;33;00;16 - 00;33;19;20
Katina
From languishing is by being fully immersed in a task that we enjoy, and that is truly what flow state is defined as and there is actually some really interesting research that we talk about a lot of day Dreamers, but that came out during COVID and it looked at people who.
00;33;19;20 - 00;33;20;24
Katina
Did a couple.
00;33;21;01 - 00;33;33;16
Katina
Variety of different wellbeing activities during their time, like meditating or getting nostalgia or thinking about being optimistic about the future or.
00;33;33;19 - 00;33;34;10
Katina
Flow.
00;33;34;10 - 00;33;46;13
Katina
Based creative activities. And they found that people by far who had the best well-being outcomes were the most well adjusted, were the ones who got into the true flow state.
00;33;46;16 - 00;33;48;21
Katina
And that's because we.
00;33;48;23 - 00;33;51;22
Katina
Are unable to think of anything else.
00;33;51;22 - 00;33;53;09
Katina
Like when you think.
00;33;53;09 - 00;34;00;04
Katina
About any time where you have just been fully immersed in doing something.
00;34;00;07 - 00;34;01;21
Katina
That you enjoyed.
00;34;01;23 - 00;34;08;21
Katina
Your prefrontal cortex actually isn't thinking about the future. It isn't thinking about the email that you have to send.
00;34;08;23 - 00;34;12;05
Katina
It isn't worrying about kind of what happened in a minute almost.
00;34;12;05 - 00;34;25;23
Steph
Feels like it's offline. Like, not that you. I'm sure that from a scientific perspective you can't think of anything else. But also I'm disassociated with that part of my brain that would think of something else.
00;34;25;26 - 00;34;30;21
Katina
Exactly. That's exactly. And what's.
00;34;30;21 - 00;34;32;05
Katina
Really powerful about.
00;34;32;05 - 00;34;34;05
Katina
That is we don't have a lot of.
00;34;34;05 - 00;34;40;02
Katina
Times in our world where we actually are able to completely disconnect.
00;34;40;02 - 00;34;41;16
Katina
Right. And a lot of the.
00;34;41;16 - 00;34;45;21
Katina
Wellbeing activities that we tend towards are like trying to.
00;34;45;21 - 00;34;52;03
Katina
Remove all the thoughts from our brain and like be completely silent by actively trying to do that or.
00;34;52;06 - 00;34;56;00
Katina
Reflecting on all the things that are wrong, right, which is great.
00;34;56;00 - 00;34;56;29
Katina
And powerful.
00;34;56;29 - 00;35;02;23
Katina
In some regards. But sometimes we do need to just like tune out. That's why yoga classes can feel so good.
00;35;02;25 - 00;35;04;02
Katina
Because we're like.
00;35;04;09 - 00;35;06;08
Katina
Fully immersed without worrying about your.
00;35;06;08 - 00;35;09;24
Katina
Phone. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I would say those.
00;35;09;24 - 00;35;14;23
Katina
Two major elements making more time, even if you don't feel like.
00;35;14;23 - 00;35;15;16
Katina
It.
00;35;15;18 - 00;35;28;06
Katina
Like you have it, and doing something that really allows you to get into the flow, even if it's only for a few minutes, are the two waves that we start to lay the groundwork for getting out of languishing and into.
00;35;28;08 - 00;35;28;13
Katina
The.
00;35;28;13 - 00;35;41;00
Katina
More flourishing ways of being, which is curiosity and wonder and art and creativity and connection. All of the things that we completely lose touch with when we're in this languishing state.
00;35;41;02 - 00;35;58;25
Steph
Okay. Interesting. So a couple of things that I just heard you say. One, your flow state can end up being only a couple of minutes. I guess in my mind, I've always thought like it takes a long time to get into a full state and then you have to be in it a long time too, for it to be effective.
00;35;59;00 - 00;36;23;17
Steph
You just said even for a couple of minutes, that can have a huge impact on your overall wellbeing. So that's a just really helpful to know. But it sounds like you were also saying it might feel a little stressful at first, like making the time for those activities, squeezing it in however you want to approach It might be a little bit stressful if you're in that state and feel like you're on autopilot.
00;36;23;17 - 00;36;24;13
Steph
Yeah.
00;36;24;15 - 00;36;26;11
Katina
Yeah. I think both of those.
00;36;26;11 - 00;36;37;18
Katina
Things are really great and takeaways. And number one, it doesn't need to be for a long period in time. The research shows it takes about 15 minutes to get into.
00;36;37;18 - 00;36;39;07
Katina
A flow state.
00;36;39;09 - 00;36;41;01
Katina
And even just entering, it.
00;36;41;01 - 00;36;42;22
Katina
Starts to.
00;36;42;24 - 00;36;51;25
Katina
You know, we say send your brain on this positive upward spiral, allow you to start to feel happier and notice more positive things.
00;36;51;25 - 00;36;53;20
Katina
So just.
00;36;53;23 - 00;36;57;00
Katina
15 minutes or so allows you to start to feel.
00;36;57;00 - 00;36;57;28
Katina
That way.
00;36;58;01 - 00;37;09;27
Katina
And so number one is doing it for less time more frequently is really powerful. Think about if you were trying to go running more often, you wouldn't only do.
00;37;09;27 - 00;37;12;26
Katina
It once a month or once a.
00;37;12;26 - 00;37;13;09
Katina
Year.
00;37;13;09 - 00;37;14;12
Katina
You would try to do.
00;37;14;12 - 00;37;18;03
Katina
It for shorter periods of time.
00;37;18;05 - 00;37;18;18
Katina
You know.
00;37;18;23 - 00;37;19;09
Katina
Once or.
00;37;19;09 - 00;37;21;01
Katina
Twice a week. Right? Okay.
00;37;21;05 - 00;37;28;05
Katina
And similar to running or similar to any type of wellbeing or physical activity even.
00;37;28;07 - 00;37;30;19
Katina
It is annoying at first. Like it is.
00;37;30;24 - 00;37;34;24
Katina
Not fun to change the pathways in our brain. Our brain is meant to.
00;37;34;24 - 00;37;36;10
Katina
Make our lives as.
00;37;36;11 - 00;37;41;09
Katina
Easy as possible. So when we're building these new pathways, any habit.
00;37;41;12 - 00;37;42;11
Katina
It takes a.
00;37;42;11 - 00;37;49;04
Katina
Lot of effort and a lot of energy. But I think that there is a difference between.
00;37;49;06 - 00;37;49;22
Katina
Kind of.
00;37;49;25 - 00;37;58;03
Katina
Asserting for effort and sake, right? That constant achievement and being able to feel accomplished with something that.
00;37;58;03 - 00;37;59;07
Katina
You are.
00;37;59;07 - 00;38;00;11
Katina
Intrinsically motivated.
00;38;00;11 - 00;38;00;29
Katina
To.
00;38;01;02 - 00;38;03;11
Katina
You're excited about. And also, you.
00;38;03;11 - 00;38;04;22
Katina
Know, it's going to allow you to feel.
00;38;04;22 - 00;38;31;25
Steph
Better. And these tools are the foundation for you to have a lasting or make a lasting change on your overall life. And so it's not like earlier in our conversation, you mentioned going on a vacation or taking some sort of drastic action or the instant gratification way, and that's great in the moment. And sometimes you need that to like sometimes you need immediate relief, and that's massively beneficial to give yourself that space.
00;38;31;27 - 00;39;12;21
Steph
But these smaller steps, day to day shift your mind to feel more open and see new possibilities and see new pathways that will make really tiny incremental, longer lasting changes on your overall lifestyle. So it's like it's like slowly course correcting yourself into a whole better feeling life. And the other thing that I pulled away from what you said a minute ago is that you don't have to languish your life away like you can feel thriving and flourishing and you can feel all those things.
00;39;12;21 - 00;39;36;10
Steph
And do you think that that's actually a natural state for humans? Like is that something that's achievable for everybody to feel like they're flourishing and thriving or be okay? Yeah, that's great. I think a lot of people, I mean, myself included at certain points, believe that they have to accept this languishing because that's life. That's time, that's reality.
00;39;36;10 - 00;39;52;24
Steph
And maybe a lot of people around you at Goldman accepted that as well. Like that's just the way it is. Like, welcome to the real World. But personally, like, I can't I can't live. I can't live with that. And like, I reject that. The idea that you have to languish or suffer.
00;39;53;00 - 00;39;53;24
Katina
Totally.
00;39;54;02 - 00;39;56;23
Katina
You brought up so many interesting points. Number one.
00;39;56;23 - 00;39;59;14
Katina
Yes. That going back to.
00;39;59;15 - 00;40;04;23
Katina
Kind of when I first started questioning these things, the main question I had is like, why.
00;40;04;25 - 00;40;12;24
Katina
Is feeling this way the accepted truth of our society? Like, I don't get it, I don't agree.
00;40;12;24 - 00;40;14;06
Katina
With it and I am going.
00;40;14;06 - 00;40;15;10
Katina
To like.
00;40;15;16 - 00;40;37;25
Katina
Take in all the reasons why everyone is doing this, even though I felt that way myself and then figure out ways to train and dream not just for myself, but hopefully for many other people. And what I found through my own personal experience and then later on why I went to grad school to really understand what does it mean to thrive, right?
00;40;37;25 - 00;40;39;02
Katina
Like what?
00;40;39;05 - 00;40;55;00
Katina
How do we get to do that? Why aren't we doing that right now? And what are the steps to getting there collectively? And I think what's really interesting is that our brains function. I really like to use this analogy.
00;40;55;00 - 00;40;55;25
Katina
And it was.
00;40;55;25 - 00;40;57;11
Katina
From one of my professors in grad.
00;40;57;11 - 00;40;57;21
Katina
School.
00;40;57;28 - 00;41;08;00
Katina
Because I think it paints such a great picture of how emotions work in our brain. So essentially, people may have heard this before, but negative emotions.
00;41;08;00 - 00;41;08;17
Katina
Have.
00;41;08;20 - 00;41;10;15
Katina
Much more weight.
00;41;10;17 - 00;41;10;25
Katina
Than.
00;41;10;25 - 00;41;15;24
Katina
Positive ones. The reason for that is because when we were evolving.
00;41;15;26 - 00;41;28;02
Katina
You know, many hundreds of thousands of years ago, we needed to survive. You know, running away from animals.
00;41;28;02 - 00;41;36;29
Katina
Eating certain berries. And when we had a bad experience, felt badly. We needed to actually take action.
00;41;37;01 - 00;41;39;03
Katina
So that's the reason.
00;41;39;03 - 00;41;54;03
Katina
Why negative emotions stick around with us for longer. And the comparison is that negative emotions are like rocks. Positive emotions, on the other hand, are like feathers. We need a lot more of them to outweigh one rock.
00;41;54;05 - 00;41;55;27
Katina
And yeah.
00;41;55;27 - 00;41;58;10
Katina
When we understand that to be.
00;41;58;10 - 00;41;59;07
Katina
True.
00;41;59;09 - 00;42;10;09
Katina
That helps us understand why we need to actively talking. Then savor, collect positive emotions because we need them.
00;42;10;11 - 00;42;12;22
Katina
To feel just as.
00;42;12;22 - 00;42;15;29
Katina
Real and heavy as negative ones.
00;42;16;01 - 00;42;17;03
Katina
That being said.
00;42;17;03 - 00;42;19;18
Katina
Going back to your question are like humans meant to.
00;42;19;18 - 00;42;22;25
Katina
Flourish. There's this really.
00;42;22;25 - 00;42;28;03
Katina
Amazing research paper by this woman, Dr. Barbara Fredrickson, that's about.
00;42;28;05 - 00;42;29;10
Katina
This positive upward.
00;42;29;10 - 00;43;02;12
Katina
Spiral that I've mentioned a few times, and what she and her research team found is are we wired for positive emotions? And really their research showed that we are. And we have been since the beginning of humanity. And when we are able to collect positive resources, that's like being able to cooperate with others, being able to give something to others in our tribe or our group, we actually survive better.
00;43;02;14 - 00;43;05;11
Katina
So we are really.
00;43;05;11 - 00;43;15;18
Katina
Wired to look for these positive things. And when we document and savor these positive emotions, our brain starts to help us look for more positive ones.
00;43;15;20 - 00;43;17;15
Katina
So we.
00;43;17;17 - 00;43;19;09
Katina
Don't have to do all the work.
00;43;19;12 - 00;43;19;28
Katina
To.
00;43;19;29 - 00;43;24;22
Katina
Kind of collect all these feathers. Our brain is helping us do so.
00;43;24;25 - 00;43;29;00
Katina
So I would say we are wired for both.
00;43;29;07 - 00;43;33;20
Katina
But I think that there is a lot going on in our brains and bodies that helps.
00;43;33;20 - 00;43;34;18
Katina
Us.
00;43;34;20 - 00;43;36;22
Katina
Flourish and thrive, and we're made.
00;43;36;22 - 00;43;37;22
Katina
To do it.
00;43;37;24 - 00;43;47;27
Steph
That's so interesting. No one ever talks about being wired for positive thoughts. Also, like, Yeah, ever. Here is our survival instincts. I know we think this way.
00;43;47;29 - 00;43;49;04
Katina
And I think what's.
00;43;49;04 - 00;43;52;26
Katina
Really interesting, even specifically around some like.
00;43;52;29 - 00;43;53;17
Katina
Flora.
00;43;53;17 - 00;44;01;15
Katina
Showing emotions and human traits like creativity, curiosity, wonder, these are.
00;44;01;15 - 00;44;02;24
Katina
All core.
00;44;02;24 - 00;44;05;18
Katina
To humanity, right? They're like innate parts of our.
00;44;05;18 - 00;44;09;05
Katina
Souls that we have lost touch.
00;44;09;05 - 00;44;14;02
Katina
With in the way that our world works and ultimately our.
00;44;14;05 - 00;44;15;04
Katina
Protective.
00;44;15;04 - 00;44;16;03
Katina
Mechanisms.
00;44;16;03 - 00;44;17;09
Katina
To help us.
00;44;17;12 - 00;44;17;26
Katina
Feel our.
00;44;17;26 - 00;44;20;17
Katina
Best, do our best, and.
00;44;20;19 - 00;44;26;19
Katina
Connect more broadly with ourselves and others. So I think that, like we often think of those.
00;44;26;19 - 00;44;27;14
Katina
As at.
00;44;27;14 - 00;44;35;12
Katina
Least I did for a very long time, I think that there are these lucky experiences that we get to if we're talented or, you know.
00;44;35;19 - 00;44;40;20
Katina
We live in a beautiful place and we got to like see, you know, a sunset.
00;44;40;20 - 00;44;41;18
Katina
Over a mountain every.
00;44;41;18 - 00;44;42;17
Katina
Night. And but they.
00;44;42;17 - 00;44;46;21
Katina
Actually are things that happen in these very everyday parts.
00;44;46;21 - 00;44;46;29
Katina
Of.
00;44;46;29 - 00;44;52;29
Katina
Being human. And I think we just have to change the conversation around them because the scientific.
00;44;52;29 - 00;44;54;14
Katina
Research is there.
00;44;54;17 - 00;45;25;00
Steph
And retrain your brain, too. That's the other thing that I've learned is it might not be natural, depending on, you know, how you grew up or who you grew up around or the environment, whatever it might be like. Again, it's uncomfortable at first when you know, oh, wow, a lot of my thoughts are negative. There is this uncomfortable period of forcing yourself to notice or forcing yourself to hold that that commentary back, maybe, you know, and instead replace it with an uncomfortable feeling, thought or comment.
00;45;25;02 - 00;45;34;22
Steph
But it's in that discomfort and practice that you start rewiring your brain and then it becomes more natural. And then you don't have to think about it totally.
00;45;34;22 - 00;45;55;00
Katina
And that processes exactly what it's like to build new pathways in our brain that's neuroplasticity, our ability to change and strengthen and rewire our brain over time. And for a long time, scientists thought that we were unable to do that after certain age, like around 25.
00;45;55;02 - 00;45;57;25
Katina
They thought and we've probably heard this in.
00;45;57;25 - 00;45;59;07
Katina
Society, right, Like.
00;45;59;09 - 00;46;05;13
Katina
You can't change your habits as you get older, but really we must do that.
00;46;05;13 - 00;46;12;04
Katina
We're totally capable of it. And the reason that we must do it is because it's core to our longevity.
00;46;12;05 - 00;46;13;02
Katina
Like if.
00;46;13;02 - 00;46;16;10
Katina
We stop learning and stop challenging our self.
00;46;16;13 - 00;46;17;23
Katina
And just get stuck.
00;46;17;23 - 00;46;34;17
Katina
In our habits as we age, our brain actually deteriorates faster. So really starting to change your habits more consistently. Use alternative hands. That's why I'm so passionate about everyday creativity, because.
00;46;34;17 - 00;46;35;02
Katina
It's.
00;46;35;05 - 00;46;39;02
Katina
Constantly rewiring your brain. That's like the whole point of what.
00;46;39;02 - 00;46;43;03
Katina
Creative practice does. So it's extremely.
00;46;43;03 - 00;46;49;13
Katina
Important for us to be uncomfortable and like see it as a gift that our brain is doing what it's.
00;46;49;13 - 00;46;50;21
Katina
Meant to do and.
00;46;50;21 - 00;46;52;02
Katina
Strengthening and protecting.
00;46;52;02 - 00;46;53;04
Katina
Us as we age.
00;46;53;11 - 00;47;19;29
Steph
So you were at Goldman for about two years. This what you said you were experiencing that languishing, you were witnessing, languishing and out you got out. So how did you you were writing and you were blogging. Were you starting to see success with your blog at that point? And so it kind of gave you confidence, or how did you make that transition to your next step, which was a more socially oriented venture fund?
00;47;20;05 - 00;47;20;27
Katina
Yeah.
00;47;21;00 - 00;47;25;25
Katina
So I actually wasn't writing publicly at that time.
00;47;25;28 - 00;47;30;08
Katina
I was doing like the O.G. version of In which was like.
00;47;30;09 - 00;47;32;01
Katina
Writing in a word.
00;47;32;01 - 00;47;33;07
Katina
Document and then.
00;47;33;07 - 00;47;34;22
Katina
Sharing it on an email.
00;47;34;22 - 00;47;43;07
Katina
List with friends and family. That was literally, if this gives anyone hope. But that's what I was doing for like a year. I was.
00;47;43;07 - 00;47;51;10
Katina
Definitely too scared to share it publicly, and I'm glad that I had a lot of time to really work through my own emotions with.
00;47;51;16 - 00;48;00;13
Katina
Like safe group of feedback. I'm sure my friends and family did not enjoy it nor read like all of Slash or any of them. I ended up.
00;48;00;13 - 00;48;06;15
Katina
Connecting with an old professor of mine. I was really passionate at that time about social impact and.
00;48;06;17 - 00;48;06;23
Katina
Had.
00;48;06;23 - 00;48;16;24
Katina
Started working on Goldman's environmental sustainability team, which was quite new at the time. So I was able to transition into something that I was actually really excited.
00;48;16;24 - 00;48;18;12
Katina
About, but not.
00;48;18;12 - 00;48;19;06
Katina
The environment.
00;48;19;11 - 00;48;21;04
Katina
For me.
00;48;21;06 - 00;48;43;07
Katina
And then ended up being able to get a job at this really cool Sun Tropics Venture fund in New York that was both incubating and funding social impact organizations, nonprofits that cared and were making an impact on mental health and digital learning and education. So it fit right in the area that I was really passionate about.
00;48;43;09 - 00;48;43;24
Katina
And while.
00;48;43;24 - 00;48;48;02
Katina
I was there and being able to feel a lot more fulfilled in my work.
00;48;48;02 - 00;48;52;16
Katina
And way less stress in my work environments.
00;48;52;18 - 00;48;54;15
Katina
Yeah, I in my.
00;48;54;18 - 00;48;56;07
Katina
Access space.
00;48;56;09 - 00;48;59;05
Katina
Started blogging publicly.
00;48;59;07 - 00;48;59;29
Katina
And.
00;49;00;03 - 00;49;06;06
Katina
Just it like under a pseudonym at the time I was really not confident sharing my work and I would recommend that to anyone.
00;49;06;06 - 00;49;11;27
Katina
Who wants to share and create, but isn't sure like if they're.
00;49;11;29 - 00;49;35;06
Katina
Want to actually be known for something yet. It's a really wonderful way to just be able to build up your confidence. And then I started seeing a lot of traction with that. It was still like early days of blogging, but I was doing that full time for like a year and half, probably until I ended up working on adulting full time.
00;49;35;09 - 00;49;45;01
Katina
I ended up applying on a whim to this graduate program that I had been eyeing for a long time, but felt like it was a really interesting time for me to do it.
00;49;45;04 - 00;49;46;05
Katina
And the day that.
00;49;46;05 - 00;49;48;13
Katina
I submitted the final draft of my.
00;49;48;13 - 00;49;50;06
Katina
Book, I got.
00;49;50;06 - 00;49;53;00
Katina
An email that I got accepted into this program.
00;49;53;05 - 00;49;55;07
Katina
Which was such a wild and.
00;49;55;07 - 00;49;56;17
Katina
Very like universe.
00;49;56;17 - 00;50;03;22
Katina
Moment that I was kind of closing one chapter and moving on to another one, which was really beautiful.
00;50;03;25 - 00;50;07;22
Steph
Wow. Wow. That's incredible. So humiliating.
00;50;07;24 - 00;50;10;15
Katina
Yeah. And I think what's really cool is the.
00;50;10;15 - 00;50;13;17
Katina
Writing process for me and what a lot of adulting.
00;50;13;18 - 00;50;14;08
Katina
Did.
00;50;14;10 - 00;50;15;06
Katina
And I think anyone who.
00;50;15;06 - 00;50;16;23
Katina
Blogs or writes about.
00;50;16;23 - 00;50;18;04
Katina
Their personal journey knows.
00;50;18;04 - 00;50;19;27
Katina
This is you reach a.
00;50;19;27 - 00;50;20;06
Katina
Certain.
00;50;20;06 - 00;50;21;22
Katina
Point where you.
00;50;21;22 - 00;50;52;24
Katina
Know that you can't be the only one who is experiencing these things. And a lot of what my purpose was in wanting to understand and go back to graduate school was really looking at it from a large scale view, like these personal experiences that I was having, I was one. But can we really start to make kind of broad, massive changes based on science and research and really being able to validate a lot of personal experiences I saw people were having?
00;50;52;24 - 00;50;53;26
Katina
So that's what.
00;50;53;26 - 00;51;05;22
Katina
Drew me to going to study in clinical psychology and really taking the approach of looking at creativity, specifically creative expression and purpose and fulfillment.
00;51;06;00 - 00;51;41;15
Steph
Yeah, and it does. It's not a new problem. Yeah, but I do think that it gets passed out generationally sometimes in some odd way. And it's something that us millennials, I think called out because like the systems that worked for the generation that preceded us, like they were rewarded for operating within that system. And I think that our generation realized the system isn't necessarily working in the way that it used to.
00;51;41;18 - 00;51;43;14
Steph
And so our expectations weren't being.
00;51;43;14 - 00;51;45;16
Katina
Met yet.
00;51;45;18 - 00;52;02;22
Steph
And like it wasn't working out for us. And so we started to push back on it. And I'm curious from all this research that you've done and then your own experience too, like are we a lot of people say we're lazy as millennials, you know, like we don't want to work. And then they say that about Gen Z also.
00;52;02;22 - 00;52;21;24
Steph
And I don't think that that's true at all. I think a few things that have come up that I've just seen in this, I guess is like the age of anti ambition. And you've mentioned that before and you've talked about that and like the great resignation and that we just don't want to work. What do you think of that generational difference like what came to the surface for us?
00;52;22;01 - 00;52;25;19
Katina
Your answer to this? Well, I think.
00;52;25;21 - 00;52;27;21
Katina
One headline that I would say.
00;52;27;24 - 00;52;31;08
Katina
Is that any group that.
00;52;31;08 - 00;52;34;04
Katina
Does not conform to the norm.
00;52;34;07 - 00;52;34;15
Katina
Like.
00;52;34;15 - 00;52;36;03
Katina
It's our human nature.
00;52;36;03 - 00;52;37;20
Katina
To push that away, right?
00;52;37;21 - 00;52;46;18
Katina
We are looking for conformity. And the science of non-conformity of innovation is so interesting. But I would say that, like it makes sense.
00;52;46;18 - 00;52;51;06
Katina
That we're like told that we're lazy or.
00;52;51;07 - 00;52;52;22
Katina
Like kind of push away this.
00;52;52;22 - 00;52;55;18
Katina
Message that detracts from what.
00;52;55;21 - 00;52;59;28
Katina
We are kind of accepting in our society. Now.
00;53;00;02 - 00;53;00;15
Katina
That being.
00;53;00;15 - 00;53;20;00
Katina
Said, something that is really interesting is that the changes that we are making as a generation and the questions that we're asking and the way that we're redefining or pushing to define work and priorities and values is, not just important for us, it's deeply important for.
00;53;20;05 - 00;53;20;17
Katina
All.
00;53;20;17 - 00;53;30;18
Katina
Generations. And something that we see at DayDreamer is even on the smallest scale, is our hypothesis was that the people who are going to be drawn to working on.
00;53;30;18 - 00;53;32;21
Katina
Their creative health and healing.
00;53;32;21 - 00;53;37;20
Katina
From burnout and languishing. We're going to be millennials in their thirties.
00;53;37;20 - 00;53;38;03
Katina
That.
00;53;38;09 - 00;53;43;18
Katina
Experience the workforce and are at a point where they're ready to make change.
00;53;43;20 - 00;53;46;16
Katina
And that just true at all.
00;53;46;19 - 00;53;48;13
Katina
We have people from.
00;53;48;19 - 00;53;50;11
Katina
All ages and.
00;53;50;11 - 00;53;53;23
Katina
A large population as people who are 55 plus.
00;53;53;25 - 00;53;56;27
Katina
Who Yeah, it's amazing who.
00;53;56;27 - 00;54;19;20
Katina
Are entering this new stage of life, who have done all of the right things and they've bought the house, they've had their kids raised them, they have retirement and they're still unfulfilled. They don't know how to spend their time, what their identity is. So I think that these questions are deeply important and they haven't been solved in our society.
00;54;19;20 - 00;54;24;10
Katina
We just are the ones that are being forced to grapple with them and.
00;54;24;13 - 00;54;25;22
Katina
I think.
00;54;25;25 - 00;54;30;18
Katina
We're doing so in a really important and big way. And I think.
00;54;30;18 - 00;54;38;26
Katina
That saying things like we have no ambition, that is totally fine, but maybe we need to redefine what ambition is, right?
00;54;38;27 - 00;54;59;08
Steph
Totally. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And there's so many things that have kind of been like pushed at us, like the need for constant productivity, the need to strive as far and as high as you possibly can and girl bossing. And like all of these, just try harder.
00;54;59;11 - 00;55;01;27
Katina
Yeah, do better. Yeah.
00;55;01;29 - 00;55;21;22
Steph
Kind of phrases and ideas and concepts. And the interesting place to be is a millennial is like we're, we're wondering, is it safe to break out of this system? Where would that put me? Am I going to be able to take care of myself if I really push back on this? Whereas Gen Z is like, we don't care.
00;55;21;29 - 00;55;24;21
Katina
Yeah, we nothing at all.
00;55;24;28 - 00;55;54;11
Steph
I, I love that you're questioning some of these things like ambition because it's kind of taboo to to say that like we don't want to be ambitious or maybe we don't need to girlboss maybe we don't need to be productive. It's not like we don't want to evolve and we don't want to continue to be curious and continue to learn and continue to create and, you know, find solutions, offer solutions to society like we want to further society.
00;55;54;13 - 00;55;55;00
Katina
Where.
00;55;55;02 - 00;56;00;13
Steph
We don't have to do it with this pushing, feeling behind it.
00;56;00;15 - 00;56;07;07
Katina
I think I couldn't agree with everything you're saying more. And I also think that like we're seeing, it doesn't work.
00;56;07;10 - 00;56;11;29
Katina
Like it's it's trap doesn't work. Like when we look at it.
00;56;11;29 - 00;56;12;28
Katina
Scientifically.
00;56;12;28 - 00;56;14;03
Katina
It is so.
00;56;14;03 - 00;56;19;19
Katina
Core to our productivity. Even if we want to take the most.
00;56;19;22 - 00;56;24;29
Katina
Productive view that we need rest or.
00;56;25;01 - 00;56;25;14
Katina
And.
00;56;25;16 - 00;56;27;05
Katina
Or to show up as.
00;56;27;05 - 00;56;28;21
Katina
Our best and most.
00;56;28;21 - 00;56;29;27
Katina
Productive and most focused.
00;56;29;27 - 00;56;59;01
Katina
So there have been countless studies recently that show like sitting I just share this on Twitter, sitting in back to back meetings with no breaks, increases the levels of stress in our brain that decreases our level of focus. Whereas if you take a five minute break in between back to back meetings and allow your brain just to do nothing, you have the same level of stress and focus as when you started your first meeting.
00;56;59;01 - 00;57;00;13
Katina
So like.
00;57;00;15 - 00;57;01;24
Katina
Scientifically, it doesn't.
00;57;01;24 - 00;57;02;23
Katina
Work.
00;57;02;26 - 00;57;11;00
Katina
We need our brain to enter the default mode, not work, which is our kind of most creative, most mind wandering place to be.
00;57;11;03 - 00;57;12;07
Katina
And then we're.
00;57;12;07 - 00;57;15;13
Katina
Seeing on the other hand, as we talked about, languishing for now.
00;57;15;13 - 00;57;16;21
Katina
Like.
00;57;16;24 - 00;57;18;10
Katina
If we continue on this.
00;57;18;10 - 00;57;19;21
Katina
Pathway, we.
00;57;19;21 - 00;57;22;13
Katina
Are going to be robot and zombie.
00;57;22;15 - 00;57;25;07
Katina
Like have no capability of.
00;57;25;12 - 00;57;37;21
Katina
Creating or inventing or doing anything new, let alone taking care of ourselves. So I think we're like reaching the end of an era, thankfully. And I don't even think it's radical to say that we.
00;57;37;24 - 00;57;44;13
Katina
Need to change how we think about ambition, success and quote unquote, productivity.
00;57;44;13 - 00;57;48;29
Katina
And also what's cool is at the sciences there, and I think a lot there's been a much.
00;57;48;29 - 00;57;52;12
Katina
Bigger push for it since COVID.
00;57;52;14 - 00;57;57;01
Katina
Which really kind of changed our working styles and our personal values.
00;57;57;03 - 00;57;58;04
Katina
And some of.
00;57;58;04 - 00;58;19;09
Steph
Those words are just like so tied up in our worth. And so it's hard to disconnect. In your experience, when you started to learn all of this research and then implement it in your own life. How did you start thinking about work differently?
00;58;19;16 - 00;58;34;08
Katina
So I would say when I was working on on adulting, just working for myself, kind of planning, managing maybe smaller impact, then my goals at day Dreamers.
00;58;34;11 - 00;58;41;01
Katina
I was really good at setting rounds. Then when I entered the startup space.
00;58;41;03 - 00;58;56;04
Katina
That's what I was driven by and what Jupiter and I both are driven by every single day is the impact that Dreamers can make on the world. And when you are starting something that you care.
00;58;56;04 - 00;58;58;08
Katina
So deeply about.
00;58;58;10 - 00;59;05;00
Katina
First, it's so much fun and so fulfilling to work on personally. Second, can have.
00;59;05;00 - 00;59;05;18
Katina
So.
00;59;05;18 - 00;59;08;10
Katina
Much of an impact on how we all think.
00;59;08;10 - 00;59;12;17
Katina
About the way that we care for our mental health, our physical health.
00;59;12;17 - 00;59;22;22
Katina
Our societal well-being. You get really caught up in it. And I would say that my biggest personal lesson has been understanding.
00;59;22;25 - 00;59;24;16
Katina
That the way.
00;59;24;16 - 00;59;36;08
Katina
That I show up in my work is a direct relation to how other people receive the work that I'm putting out in the world. So if I am showing up.
00;59;36;08 - 00;59;40;00
Katina
As a frenzy and stressed, overworked.
00;59;40;00 - 00;59;40;12
Katina
Person.
00;59;40;19 - 00;59;41;05
Katina
Because I.
00;59;41;05 - 00;59;43;16
Katina
Care that caring does.
00;59;43;17 - 00;59;47;07
Katina
Not like precede the way that.
00;59;47;07 - 00;59;49;21
Katina
People are receiving this product and this work.
00;59;49;21 - 00;59;51;09
Katina
So what was really.
00;59;51;09 - 00;59;59;08
Katina
Important to me is after spending a year and a half of working intensely on building day Dreamers, it felt.
00;59;59;08 - 01;00;00;09
Katina
Like we.
01;00;00;09 - 01;00;01;02
Katina
Were having a.
01;00;01;07 - 01;00;05;29
Katina
Baby. That was the level of intensity of work.
01;00;05;29 - 01;00;08;13
Katina
That we were putting in to.
01;00;08;16 - 01;00;09;07
Katina
This.
01;00;09;07 - 01;00;30;21
Katina
Company and this product. And I think there was a point this year that really forced myself and JP and our team to think about how we were showing up and caring for ourselves and how we could sustainably do that so that we could continue to make an impact. And I think when you're an impact driven company.
01;00;30;27 - 01;00;31;07
Katina
Like.
01;00;31;08 - 01;00;37;27
Katina
It's really easy to not think about yourself and your own well-being.
01;00;38;00 - 01;00;38;16
Katina
But it's.
01;00;38;16 - 01;00;40;15
Katina
Ultimately the most important.
01;00;40;18 - 01;00;42;27
Katina
Thing that we can do otherwise as a company.
01;00;42;27 - 01;00;45;05
Katina
And the impact wouldn't sustain, right?
01;00;45;06 - 01;00;48;04
Katina
So it's kind of a backwards way of thinking about it.
01;00;48;04 - 01;00;55;15
Katina
But I would say since that reckoning, we've implemented everything that we tell daydreamer as members to.
01;00;55;15 - 01;01;07;05
Katina
Do job like take breaks, don't have long meetings like create space to create just for yourself. And we literally like live the daydreamer lifestyle.
01;01;07;05 - 01;01;09;21
Katina
And it has been the most.
01;01;09;23 - 01;01;12;27
Katina
Amazing change. And I think, you know.
01;01;12;29 - 01;01;15;18
Katina
Our organization and our business.
01;01;15;18 - 01;01;21;03
Katina
Has been done so much better because we can show up.
01;01;21;05 - 01;01;24;14
Katina
And think more clearly and more.
01;01;24;16 - 01;01;26;16
Katina
Productively, I guess.
01;01;26;18 - 01;01;34;07
Steph
Do you find that it's slowed or changed the trajectory, the trajectory of the business? I don't.
01;01;34;08 - 01;01;34;14
Katina
Know.
01;01;34;20 - 01;01;36;07
Steph
Oh.
01;01;36;10 - 01;01;37;05
Katina
Oh, yeah.
01;01;37;06 - 01;01;52;02
Katina
Not at all. I think that when you are stressed and chaotic, your work is that way. You end up wasting so much time because you are just like worried about things that don't exist. But when you are able to come in clearly.
01;01;52;04 - 01;01;53;12
Katina
And.
01;01;53;15 - 01;02;00;04
Katina
Confidently, you get so much more done in a shorter amount of time. And I think you actually are able to make.
01;02;00;06 - 01;02;00;16
Katina
Much.
01;02;00;16 - 01;02;02;15
Katina
More long term decisions.
01;02;02;17 - 01;02;23;06
Steph
Tell us a little bit about daydreamer and just what somebody might experience if they become a member. Because personally, I was in a state for a period of time where I just felt like I couldn't add one more thing to my plate. And now that I am a member and I'm engaging, I understand that like I absolutely have time.
01;02;23;09 - 01;02;30;14
Steph
It is very easy to fit in and you make it really, really simple and step wise and yeah.
01;02;30;16 - 01;02;31;09
Katina
Well, I'm so.
01;02;31;09 - 01;02;33;17
Katina
Glad you got to experience it for yourself.
01;02;33;17 - 01;02;47;23
Katina
Essentially the headline of Daydream is, is that we are helping all adults, but specifically non artists strengthen their creative health. So when we think about creative health, it isn't just like create in art, right?
01;02;47;23 - 01;02;51;05
Katina
It's not just creating a beautiful painting, but it's.
01;02;51;05 - 01;02;53;09
Katina
Really about all of the things that we.
01;02;53;09 - 01;02;54;10
Katina
Talked about.
01;02;54;13 - 01;03;26;08
Katina
Being able to express yourself and your emotions, being able to experience awe and wonder and then being able to think critically and creatively. So we really see it across the spectrum that requires kind of physical expression, creative thinking and connection with others, and then being able to mindfully experience the beauty around you. So that's really what we're striving for at Daydream, or as we kind of implement it in some unique ways which, you.
01;03;26;08 - 01;03;27;05
Katina
Know, we.
01;03;27;05 - 01;03;45;18
Katina
Have an app where we kind of house all of the Dreamers content, the exercises that are organized based on how much time that you have and what goals that you might have based on what your creative health looks like right now. And then we also give people the physical, creative.
01;03;45;18 - 01;03;49;01
Katina
Tools to actually yeah, so you.
01;03;49;01 - 01;03;56;25
Steph
Get a you get a present in the mail, you receive all these tools that I honestly would probably be too lazy to go to the store and get.
01;03;56;29 - 01;04;02;09
Katina
Totally. And what I think is really cool and this is actually like first.
01;04;02;09 - 01;04;06;22
Katina
Sharing here, we're pushing out a really big update in early January.
01;04;06;22 - 01;04;08;11
Katina
Where we.
01;04;08;14 - 01;04;27;11
Katina
Know that right now Daydream is associated with different goals and emotional states. So for example, Stephanie, you are on the children here, which is kind of helping you feel more relaxed and mindful and really using your creative practice to change how you feel in your day to day.
01;04;27;11 - 01;04;29;14
Katina
But the big update that we're pushing.
01;04;29;14 - 01;04;37;01
Katina
Out is that we're actually going to be changing a lot of the content and organizing Daydream is based on creative.
01;04;37;01 - 01;04;40;07
Katina
Blocks that you might have.
01;04;40;10 - 01;04;46;26
Katina
Which is a lot of the feedback and the findings and the research that we've been doing. And this phase of our work.
01;04;46;28 - 01;04;47;24
Katina
So we've been finding.
01;04;47;24 - 01;04;54;19
Katina
That it's not just that you need to feel more relaxed, but actually what you're working on is reducing perfectionism.
01;04;54;25 - 01;04;58;21
Katina
Yes, And that applies to so many parts of life, right?
01;04;58;21 - 01;05;02;14
Katina
Like you are not just trying to reduce perfectionism in your creative.
01;05;02;14 - 01;05;02;28
Katina
Practice.
01;05;02;28 - 01;05;03;25
Katina
But at work.
01;05;03;25 - 01;05;05;01
Katina
And.
01;05;05;03 - 01;05;07;22
Katina
In relationships. And I think.
01;05;07;24 - 01;05;08;03
Katina
I'm.
01;05;08;03 - 01;05;16;25
Katina
Really excited for the way that this is going to take shape and the different journeys that you could go on so that creative help isn't just isolated to this.
01;05;16;28 - 01;05;17;27
Katina
Typical way we think.
01;05;17;27 - 01;05;20;08
Katina
Of creativity, but a way that we show up in the.
01;05;20;08 - 01;05;20;24
Katina
World.
01;05;20;26 - 01;05;34;21
Steph
Wow, I'm so excited for you. Funny that you mentioned perfectionism because that's a conversation I was having last night. Oh my gosh. I, I never identify as a perfectionist because I'm not perfect, which is the problem.
01;05;34;21 - 01;05;37;26
Katina
Like, that's like perfectionism that is.
01;05;37;27 - 01;06;01;02
Steph
Dealing literally to be a perfectionist. It's here's a list of 20 things that I need to totally hit the nail on the head. So that's hilarious. I love that you're switching it because that it seems like it'll be a pathway that will enhance self awareness. You know, like I understand that I need to chill, but like, there's so much more behind that and you're helping bring that to the surface.
01;06;01;02 - 01;06;09;19
Steph
And practicing these tools is chipping away and like shifting that path, like supporting our foundation holistically. So I love.
01;06;09;19 - 01;06;12;27
Katina
That to be Yes. So that's so spot on.
01;06;12;27 - 01;06;26;28
Katina
And it's actually like what we're doing with creativity in there, Using creativity compared to other mental health practices and wellbeing practices has some really unique ways and areas that we can work on in our life, right?
01;06;26;28 - 01;06;28;00
Katina
Like creative.
01;06;28;00 - 01;06;29;02
Katina
Practice is so.
01;06;29;02 - 01;06;30;10
Katina
Ripe for.
01;06;30;10 - 01;06;35;07
Katina
Reducing perfectionism, not only because we have this physical product that we need to.
01;06;35;07 - 01;06;38;21
Katina
Like work through what our reaction to that is.
01;06;38;23 - 01;06;49;07
Katina
But also because it's enhancing mental flexibility. So how we're able to kind of change the way that we think about our outcomes and our end goals.
01;06;49;09 - 01;06;53;05
Katina
So I think it's just really a cool way to work on these things.
01;06;53;09 - 01;07;21;04
Steph
Totally. And what I love about it too, is like this is a surefire way to get into that flow state and do so with no attachment to an outcome, because I would never buy a scratch pad and expect that something is going to come of that. Like, whereas many other artistic hobbies, you know, I picked up pottery once and I was like bummed because I looked on Pinterest for inspiration and nothing I made looked like the things I saw on Pinterest.
01;07;21;04 - 01;07;41;12
Steph
So all of a sudden now there's like this negative feeling associated with what we're supposed to just be, you know, an outlet, a form of intervention, a form of expression, a way to use my hands and like, connect with myself in a different way. And so I love that I'm not choosing the art that we're going to create.
01;07;41;12 - 01;08;03;14
Steph
You're sending me this package and saying whether you like it or not, you have a scratch pad, start playing with it, you know, and then it taps you into that flow state that we talked about that. Otherwise I would be thinking with my logical brain, like, how can I get into that flow state? How like just overthinking it.
01;08;03;14 - 01;08;12;28
Steph
And this is really alleviating all of that friction in that burden to just almost immediately start experiencing results.
01;08;12;29 - 01;08;13;09
Katina
Oh, my.
01;08;13;09 - 01;08;21;13
Katina
Gosh, yes, you did such a beautiful way of describing what we're aiming to do reduce friction so that we can feel better.
01;08;21;15 - 01;08;30;23
Katina
Yeah, this isn't just an amorphous thing and you can actually track the impact that this has on your creative health. So you can really see what.
01;08;30;23 - 01;08;31;16
Katina
Kind.
01;08;31;18 - 01;08;50;05
Katina
Metrics and elements of your psychological well-being it's changing, how it's shifting your mood and how this habit is really informing and changing your life. So I think what's really cool is we take a very analytical approach to something that can feel very unclear and amorphous.
01;08;50;07 - 01;08;58;01
Katina
Obviously are like data and science people. So for those skeptics out there, you could really see.
01;08;58;06 - 01;09;00;15
Katina
The impact that it has on how.
01;09;00;15 - 01;09;01;07
Katina
You feel.
01;09;01;09 - 01;09;25;04
Steph
So I want everyone to sign up for Daydream or I want to get it for my entire family. I want to get them all scratch pads for their stockings, like everyone can benefit from this. And what are a few free resources If somebody either can't or isn't ready to participate in day Dreamers today? You've mentioned so many little steps that people can take, like starting now for free.
01;09;25;04 - 01;09;28;06
Steph
So just maybe a few of your favorites.
01;09;28;08 - 01;09;28;25
Katina
Yeah.
01;09;28;25 - 01;09;31;04
Katina
So two of them that I use day to.
01;09;31;04 - 01;09;34;07
Katina
Day that are like within day dreamers, but.
01;09;34;07 - 01;09;37;19
Katina
I kind of have made my own now that I use them so.
01;09;37;19 - 01;09;49;01
Katina
Often are these concepts called offloading. So basically our ability to kind of use physical product or kind of.
01;09;49;01 - 01;09;51;18
Katina
Get a lot of thoughts that are.
01;09;51;18 - 01;10;15;21
Katina
Roaming around in our head into the physical world. So I you will find me on pretty much every meeting, doodling that using a scratch pad, but writing things that don't necessarily make sense on the surface of them, but are allowing me to kind of both enter that default mode network and also reduce the cognitive load in my brain.
01;10;15;27 - 01;10;17;23
Katina
So I love.
01;10;17;23 - 01;10;24;20
Katina
Cognitive offloading and it's also something that we use within Daydream to help you kind of process your emotions in a creative.
01;10;24;20 - 01;10;29;07
Katina
Way. And the second thing is our walks. That is my top favorite.
01;10;29;07 - 01;10;32;00
Katina
Thing right now. I actively.
01;10;32;02 - 01;10;34;05
Katina
Do not bring up headphones on.
01;10;34;05 - 01;10;40;19
Katina
My walks. I used to be obsessed with listening to podcasts, kind of learning as much as.
01;10;40;19 - 01;10;43;04
Katina
Possible, but it's.
01;10;43;04 - 01;11;01;23
Katina
Extremely important for us to experience AR and savor beauty as a way to send our brain on a positive upward spiral, right? So if we experience even just 20 minutes of R so going on your walk and yourself to marvel at.
01;11;01;26 - 01;11;04;26
Katina
The sunset or, you know, a flower.
01;11;04;26 - 01;11;12;14
Katina
It can be the most micro thing, but really living in it is extremely powerful for creativity and wellbeing.
01;11;12;17 - 01;11;14;23
Katina
And then one thing that I would say is.
01;11;14;26 - 01;11;19;03
Katina
One of our advisors and someone that I really look up to.
01;11;19;09 - 01;11;20;13
Katina
Wrote this book called.
01;11;20;13 - 01;11;23;14
Katina
Your Brain on Art.
01;11;23;17 - 01;11;24;01
Katina
And.
01;11;24;01 - 01;11;39;03
Katina
It came out earlier this year. It was coauthored by a Google executive and a scientist. Susan Magnuson. And it's all about the science of creativity and well-being. So it's a really awesome book.
01;11;39;06 - 01;11;44;16
Katina
And I think it's speaks to a lot of the things that we talk about it. Dreamers, too.
01;11;44;19 - 01;11;45;19
Steph
I'm going to have to rebut.
01;11;45;20 - 01;11;47;12
Katina
Yes. Could you.
01;11;47;14 - 01;11;51;10
Steph
Okay. A resource that you would recommend to the audience.
01;11;51;12 - 01;11;52;06
Katina
So I have a lot of.
01;11;52;06 - 01;11;57;14
Katina
Book, but I think the first thing that comes to mind is truly like getting.
01;11;57;14 - 01;12;04;04
Katina
Yourself a journal. You feel like being able to sear.
01;12;04;06 - 01;12;17;16
Katina
And express your thoughts, innermost thoughts without clouds or judgment or anyone else. Seeing it, I think has been the most transformative resource that I've had in my life and career.
01;12;17;19 - 01;12;21;23
Katina
But I think there's a couple books that really stand out to me.
01;12;21;28 - 01;12;27;09
Katina
Well, I'm right now rereading Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
01;12;27;12 - 01;12;40;20
Katina
Which is it's like, have you read the book? No, I'm so Nation. Yeah, well, it's a philosophy book that came out in the sixties and it's.
01;12;40;23 - 01;12;45;18
Katina
You know, very like the four agreements and that it's like a journey of travel.
01;12;45;18 - 01;12;46;12
Katina
But it.
01;12;46;15 - 01;12;50;27
Katina
Questions so much of the way that we see the world.
01;12;50;29 - 01;12;53;19
Katina
Where. We're how we process things.
01;12;53;19 - 01;12;54;23
Katina
And I feel like.
01;12;54;25 - 01;12;57;04
Katina
Being able to just give yourself space to.
01;12;57;04 - 01;12;59;16
Katina
Savor and like live in that.
01;12;59;16 - 01;13;00;21
Katina
Deep question.
01;13;00;21 - 01;13;00;25
Katina
In.
01;13;00;25 - 01;13;03;09
Katina
Books is so important.
01;13;03;12 - 01;13;08;23
Katina
For kind of pushing the balance on your own thinking. So I would say that.
01;13;08;23 - 01;13;22;27
Steph
I love that just another really quick one for somebody maybe that you were working with back in the days of government who were experiencing that deep languishing, you just had one little piece of advice for them. I think there's a lot people that are experiencing that.
01;13;22;29 - 01;13;27;18
Katina
I would say follow your curiosity, like get back in touch.
01;13;27;25 - 01;13;29;10
Katina
With what you're curious.
01;13;29;10 - 01;13;29;28
Katina
About.
01;13;30;00 - 01;13;30;23
Katina
And continue.
01;13;30;26 - 01;13;32;29
Katina
Follow that wherever it goes.
01;13;33;01 - 01;13;34;29
Steph
Yeah, I'm saying that for dreamers.
01;13;35;03 - 01;13;42;01
Katina
Yeah. I think in my home grown ups, it's made for people like you and me.
01;13;42;03 - 01;13;43;09
Steph
And me. Yeah.
01;13;43;11 - 01;13;44;15
Katina
Yeah.
01;13;44;17 - 01;13;50;18
Steph
Amazing. Well, thank you so much. Where can everybody find you? One of your handles where they can also talk to you.
01;13;50;21 - 01;13;51;08
Katina
All of.
01;13;51;08 - 01;13;54;03
Katina
My personal handles are @katinabajaj
01;13;56;04 - 01;14;08;28
Katina
Both on TikTok and Instagram, and that's also my website is KatinaBajaj.com. And then daydreamer is as hey, it's DayDreamer is on social and then our website is daydreamer.co.
01;14;09;00 - 01;14;09;26
Steph
Amazing.
01;14;09;26 - 01;14;16;29
Katina
Thank you. So thank you. This is so much fun. I'm a great way to spend a Friday.
01;14;17;01 - 01;14;39;07
Steph
Thank you, Katina. One last thing before you go. It would mean the absolute world to me if you could tap those cute five little stars wherever you're listening. If you just click the show's name on your screen right now, it'll take you to the shows page where you can rate and review with your thoughts. And it is a tremendous deal in the charts so that more people can join this community.
01;14;39;10 - 01;14;40;25
Steph
I am so grateful.